Home is not where you live, but where they understand you.
Monday, January 15, 2007
Quote of the Day
An individual has not started living until he can rise above the narrow confines of his individualistic concerns to the broader concerns of all humanity.
Gee, I appreciate the day off but to me, MLK day represents the very worst in American revisionist history.
The Rev. Dr. MLK Jr. is, unfortunately, a fictional character as we have been told to know him. I say unfortunately because America could really use someone who could really live up to the reputation that has been created.
I recently heard some young relatives talking about how great MLK was, we're talking 13-16 years old here, and I can't imagine the level of propaganda that must've been used to cram this ideaology down their throats. They were honestly sincerely, idolizing this figure in American history, where they would otherwise be cynical, ambivalent, or most often, ignorant of history altogether.
What's the point? That those who win the war get to write the history. And this war, the war of relativism with regard to thought in American society, it be over a looooong time ago. Those books have been re-written and we're a generation and a half into a people who couldn't tell you what century the Revolution and Civil War were fought, yet know chapter and verse of the life of a re-defined and largely irrelevant personality.
But, as I said, whose chapter and verse are largely made up. Supposedly, the government has sealed documents until this year so maybe we'll know more, but his own biographers have said that King saw the civil rights movement, a push for equality, not as within the context of our American system of capitalism but as a paradigmal shift to Marxism.
According to King's biographer and sympathizer David J. Garrow, "King privately described himself as a Marxist." In his 1981 book, "The FBI and Martin Luther King, Jr.", Garrow quotes King as saying in SCLC staff meetings, "...we have moved into a new era, which must be an era of revolution.... The whole structure of American life must be changed.... We are engaged in the class struggle."
Isn't it odd that in America, we have a national holiday for someone who basically wanted to overthrow the government and trasition us to a socialist state?
Lest you be tempted to believe the controlled media's lie about "racists" in the FBI being out to "get" King, you should be aware that the man most responsible for the FBI's probe of King was Assistant Director William C. Sullivan. Sullivan describes himself as a liberal, and says that initially "I was one hundred per cent for King...because I saw him as an effective and badly needed leader for the Black people in their desire for civil rights." The probe of King not only confirmed their suspicions about King's Communist beliefs and associations, but it also revealed King to be a despicable hypocrite, an immoral degenerate, and a worthless charlatan.
According to Assistant Director Sullivan, who had direct access to the surveillance files on King which are denied the American people, King had embezzled or misapplied substantial amounts of money contributed to the "civil rights" movement. King used SCLC funds to pay for liquor, and numerous prostitutes both Black and White, who were brought to his hotel rooms, often two at a time, for drunken sex parties which sometimes lasted for several days. These types of activities were the norm for King's speaking and organizing tours.
In fact, an outfit called The National Civil Rights Museum in Memphis, Tennessee, which is putting on display the two bedrooms from the Lorraine Motel where King stayed the night before he was shot, has declined to depict in any way the "occupants - -of those rooms. That "according to exhibit designer Gerard Eisterhold "would be "close to blasphemy." The reason? Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. spent his last night on Earth having sex with two women at the motel and physically beating and abusing a third.
Sorry, but I just can't get jazzed about a leader, no matter how dynamic he is or how polished his image is, if this is what the FBI is reporting, and this from someone who once supported him. Maybe we'll know the whole story some day, but I have a suspicion that since the war is over, all we'll continue to get is the spin.
"led the movement that eradicated the most widespread injustice in the history of our nation."
"You can not be serious." - John McEnroe
With all due respect, the work of the abolitionists and Mr. Lincoln would trump any civil rights activity, unequivolally. Washington, Jefferson, Roosevelt, Truman, and Eisenhower each and individually did more to shape this country than the sum total of every 1960s civil rights personality. So yeah, by comparison, irrelevant. Heck, if you've read any history on JFK, LBJ, you'd know that THEY had more to do with the acutal changes that occurred with regard to civil rights. Unfortunately, then, as now, it was mostly a political ploy to garner favor with minorities (votes).
And certainly irrelevant to kids of today, unless they happen to belong to a select group. By what standard am I making this statement? Simply asking the question, how would our lives be different today if ______ had never lived? I could come up with dozens of Americans that would outrank MLK.
"God's purposes were accomplished through him."
I can agree with that and for that, admire the man.
"A wrong was made right, proper order was restored, and a message of equality of all God's children was preached."
I can also agree in part with that but a couple of things. As I said before, what wouldn't have happened without him? And secondly, I don't know about any order being restored. Let's look at the current state of civil rights in the US. Its a bunch of shake down artists, not worthy of the MLK legacy.
And you're right, indiscretions do not mean that we shouldn't celebrate the good. But a national celebration is hardly warranted. Smells like political pandering.
We exsist in a nation and maybe a world now that cares nothing about the "truth".....it is a world of preception....and as Americans we have perfected this practice....our preception becomes reality...our "truth" if you will....the thing that strikes me funny is this...many of us, myself included, are quick to say that the liberal media is the issuse...they are the ones that we can't trust...but what has the government of this country done in its history that leads us to think that they are any different? I have known a number of people that have worked in the government...some with pretty high clearance....I have heard from some of those people that the government is not so different than the media...and that things are not always as they seem, so the fact that the FBI or any other agency of this government says something doesn't make it true....I've seen a lot of things in the last 10 years...the one thing you can count on is this...there are several sides to every story....and the "truth"...well that is something that resides, rather elusively, somewhere in the middle.
All that to say this...I agree with you both on certain things....do those that were affected by what this man did hold him up in a light that may be brighter now than it really was.....yeah, they probably do...but wouldn't we do the same if we were in their shoes? If it had been us that had to sit in the back of the bus....drink from a different water fountain...have our rights as a human kept from us?
I also know this...power corrupts...so the idea that he could be a little less perfect than he appears is no surprise to me either. And to Tooms point about fictional characters...well, they are all fictional...nobody, save Christ and maybe Billy Graham are who they appear to be, so to discredit what was accomplished in this movment because of character flaws I think is a disservice to the issue.
The fact is people in this country were and still are discriminated against for nothing more than who they are....that screams kindom of the world.....not Kingdom of God.
On the flip side of that coin, there are many people who can bring it from the pulpit while not living the same way outside of it...these people in my opinion do more damage to the cause of Christ than anything....I wasn't on the inside of this movment...I don't know anyone who was....but I do know this....there have been enough accounts of his life to bring some things in to question....those who were there know what they witnessed and we may never know the real story...and that is fine...becuase what really matters is the fact that God worked through this movment. Plain and simple....God's will was moved forward even with questionable men at the helm.....and this continues to happen everyday...and thank God that he doesn't just use "rightous men"...because I fear little would get done....
Was MLK the second coming...no, he wasn't......but he wasn't the anti-christ either.
CT: it is a world of preception....and as Americans we have perfected this practice....our preception becomes reality...our "truth" if you will
TH: Yes, no question. This is a hot button topic with me.
Your comments on government, liberal media bias, I agree with all of it. I'm not going to agree with anyone just because they have an official title. I'm skeptical of everyone and everything. But in this instance, the FBI guy who came out and said this stuff was an MLK ADVOCATE!!! He didn't have an agenda to bring him down, he simply reacted to what he saw.
CT: ... but wouldn't we do the same if we were in their shoes?
TH: Yes, good point. I understand how sometimes, the sum total of a movement gets credited to a singular person and that person can be deified in the eyes of followers.
CT: ... so to discredit what was accomplished in this movment because of character flaws I think is a disservice to the issue.
TH: Well said, and I admit, some of what I said was purposefully inflammatory. I don't know why I do that, I guess I just like to!!!
That being said, no, it does not discredit what was accomplished (Martin Luther himself was crazy and lookie what HE did) I probably should have confined the comment to be on what was and what wasn't accomplished.
CT: The fact is people in this country were and still are discriminated against for nothing more than who they are....that screams kindom of the world.....not Kingdom of God.
TH: yeah, but, nothing anyone can compare to the old days. And when you factor in reverse discrimmy, it is pretty much a wash. Certainly doesn't amount to a movement, which is why I bring up the current lackeys. They're into nothing more than getting corporate dollars because to not get them would cast a bad perception on the corporation. I know that is a harsh statement but it seems to be very much the reality and nothing MLK would have been a part of.
CT: and thank God that he doesn't just use "rightous men"...because I fear little would get done....
TH: Fo sho.
JH: Obviously, at that point African-Americans were not slaves but were still barely considered human.
TH: I think you're going a bit too far with that comment. I have known some old southern folk in my time and heard some pretty bigoted stuff but I've never heard anything like that.
If you want equality, fine, I would have been right there with them, but recent history shows more of a suggestion that a lot didn't - they wanted to be in the superior position - and that is a black mark on human nature. As was the opposition. They feared the unknown and it is hard for me to say I would have been much different. Those who had a real hatred there, that is the real issue.
In sum, I understand the desire for equality, to live together as if there are no differences. If that were it, you'd find no bigger advocate, I think this was MLK's position and it is mine. I also understand being afraid, from the white perspective, of what they did not understand. If I were taught this and that and had no experience to get me away from that, I'd be afraid too.
What I don't like is the push, not for equality, but to elevate one over the other because the one was once beneath the other. I side with Booker T. Washington (who faced REAL oppresion) and suggest, that can never happen - that real integration can't be forced with legislation. He put it more eloquently in the famous, "Cast down your bucket where you are" speech. http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/88.
But, history tells us that the civil rights movement went in another direction. Not "OK, so this is what we've been dealt. Time to show them white guys we can be just as good as them." But, "you've been so mean and nasty, now we demand you fix it all by putting bias in the system in our favor. And by the way, we'll be using that line from now until forever to explain away every issue for every time."
JH: Yours probably wouldn't be much different but there are plenty of minorites that would answer the question quite differently and really that should have an effect on all of us.
TH: C'mon. That's my point. Why does a nation of many people groups celebrate the very specialized impact of a largely manufactured persona? ... who may or may not have been advocating an overthrow of the government and the implementation of communism?
JH: As far as order being restored...order was restored because people that God created where no longer blatantly discriminated against by thier own government.
TH: Which is it? Is there still a 'struggle' or isn't there? I agree with you, that the problem was largely solved during that very tumultuous time. Why then are we still hearing about all this crap!!!??? Could it be that white America got MLK's message while his own army insists that more drastic reparations need to occur? How is little Jamal Thomas' life different from little Tucker Heaton's today that we need to give Jamal a government sanctioned boost? THAT is the ultimate slap in the face, not to white folks but African Americans. Only the majority doesn't see it that way because it is self-serving and they've been convinced (insert CT's perception as truth argument) that they're being treated badly.
That is what I meant when I said was order restored? On one side of the fence, order was reversed. On the other, order needs more movement in that same direction, and then there are those of us who think, yeah, we pretty much live in an equal society.
JH: As far as MLK warranting a national holiday (and maybe we are making two different points) I'm sure that if you look at it politically there are arguments that can be made, but I certainly believe that his life and what he accomplished deserves to be celebrated...national holiday or not.
TH: I do too! Not a freakin' national holiday when there are countless others who did more.
Look, MLK, shakes out to be a gifted leader who did a lot to further TRUE equality, either directly or indirectly. I like him, on the whole, (the threesome thing was pretty cool) and aside from the communist allegations, I like his message. But it irks me that we trump stuff up that fits the politically correct mold to these momentous things when the reality is, while important, too segmented to merit this kind of attention.
I do agree with your thought on the fact that the 60's were tame compared to previous generations...I still think you are looking at a lineage....or heritage.....that race had been oppressed for many years...stories handed down from father to son to grandson about what life had been like from the slave blocks to the plantations to free men...so yeah, was it as bad in the 60's...of course not...but it does seem to me that that time was kind of a culmination of all that had happened maybe....and your right...many went well before MLK with their lives....not from an assassins bullet but by their own government....
But again....I also agree that the "sins of our fathers" so to speak have been over corrected in this age of political correctness.....and I also fully affirm your theory that all of this (from a political lense) is done with agenda implications.
I'm not sure where to go from here....I remember hearing and using racial slurs growing up...and it sickens me that I viewed that as OK to do.....This is what I feel sure of....I am no better than anyone else that walks this earth....and God tells me I am to love without conditions on that love.....our world is an ugly one in many ways....is what MLK stood against the only form of discrimination....not by a long shot and i'm not so sure it's the worst we've seen....but it is wrong no matter how you slice it.
All I know to do is try my best to look at things through the lense of God's grace...not that I always do....but I want to.
This ain't easy and in a way, I've contradicted myself.
Lately, I've been wavering from the political right and perhaps this is my inner right wing's backlash, but it drives me crazy when we think and act out of a posture that says, "well, since this goes on with the opposition, I'll be reactionary to the other extreme" and I don't want to do that.
So, obviously, we have conflicting forces, inner forces, that tell us what we've learned and observed and right and wrong. Anyway, with that caveat...
CT: I'm not sure where to go from here....I remember hearing and using racial slurs growing up...and it sickens me that I viewed that as OK to do
TH: I'm not either. Another thing though that you touched on that we've accomplished in this country - ethnic slurs. So what? Now, if they speak to real feelings of superiority/hate/etc. then they need to be dealt with and sure, the use of such language speaks to someone's ignorance of the political climate, but we've so villified discussion, not necessarily derogatory discussion but ANY discussion of race, that it is the new unpardonable. What seems apparent to me is that there is nothing in culture today more offensive than truth that people don't want to hear. To say that "most terrorists are Muslim" does NOT equate to, "I hate Muslims" but plain and simple, it is offensive to say so even though it may be plain truth. To suggest that we're not going to develop ideas about people groups is INSANE! There's nothing wrong with it. To run from there to hate or to assumptions about individuals to the point where their lives are affected is crossing the line, but drawing a conclusion based on observation is nothing more than using one's brain. Contrast with, "Most Asian kids are smart." See, not offensive but the same broad generality is drawn. I've gotten off subject but the basic point here is, when did we get so sensitive? HS Truman, who I've come to see as a great President, said once someone in this country won't express an opinion based on fear, we're through. Based on his assessment, we're through.
CT: All I know to do is try my best to look at things through the lense of God's grace...not that I always do....but I want to.
TH: And that just about says it all. Beyond the lens of politics or even what you think should be corrected, this is the way to go about it. And quite honestly, I don't care about politics anymore anyway. Like I said when I started, we live in such a world of relativism, it is impossible to figure it out anyway so may as well concern yourself with the stuff you can. Wow, that's a positive approach, isn't it?
This is good stuff......real stuff.... and I think it is ok to know that we can't figure it all out....and like you said...focus on what we can affect in our own lives......
Rockin' debate. The most powerful message is one wherein what is spoken is also embodied by and demonstrated by the one speaking. But at the same time, truth does not find it's value in whether or not I accept it or live out the message. Truth is truth independent of me. Ted Haggard spoke vehemently against homosexual issues form the pulpit, yet was found to be wrestling with and acting upon that which he railed against. So often is the case with preachers, activists, and anyone with a cause. I embrace the freedom and equality that has been passed on through the "based on a true story" history of MLK, Jr. Race has divided men throughout history, and we are living in a time unlike any other in history where, disregarding the isolated racial incident, race doesn't matter. Yes, as with most adjustment, the pendulum has swung back the other way, meaning that before it rests in the non-discriminating middle, those who formerly were discriminating are now discriminated against. Our generation, and even moreso, our children will live in a unique world where people of all races dine together and worship together. Finally, a realization of the Gospel message that in Christ, there is neither Jew, nor Greek, slave nor free. Christ came to draw us to the Father, but also that the barriers between men might come down. If I had my way, we wouldn't celebrate the man, we would celebrate the message of MLK spoken in his public life. "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." If only Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, et al shared that same dream...
I didn't realize we had more content on this one till today. Makes me wonder, why do we enjoy or get fired up about race stuff? I think it is because deep down, people think that a group collectively feels a certain way and that is always beneath the surface. I have always thought it really weird when I see whites championing some cause of the minority position when I think the minority position is racist (like the guys that you see at Cynthia McKinney's campaign rallys) Yet, there must be something powerful within the individual that he sees fit to act like that. I understand self-interest but it is altogether different to chuck it and pull for the other side.
That being said, I applaud righting a wrong when it ain't you being wronged. I despise inequality based on race and most would say the same, only the difference is, a difference in philosophy of inequality.
So, where does that leave me? I get really reactionary when I perceive that the civil rights crew is really trying to re-write history and manipulate the country into a certain state of mind. Sometimes, that reaction goes too far. I also get upset when I perceive that a group of white people have hate beneath the surface and that response is sometimes too reactionary.
When I'm not reacting, what I'd really like to see is "the dream" come to pass. But it won't happen with one side pushing affirmative action and the other harboring secret ideas of superiority. My conviction is we're witnessing the shift from people groups assimilating into culture to culture being 'sensitive' and allowing themselves to be shifted.
Not good for America, but we knew that. Evidence that this issue will never go away until redemption is complete. But as Jebo's grandmother (and mine) is fond of saying, "I never promised you a rose garden."
And as Forest Gump said, "That's all I have to say about that."
You're right, Toom......I don't see this ever really being over. I guess what I feel is that I should look at each person as a being of value...no matter the color of their skin...This political power game is always going to be played until Christ calls game over....I hear what you are saying and it is hard sometimes to not get caught up in the "us vs. them" fray....each side making moves to try and secure more power over the other group.
11 comments:
Gee, I appreciate the day off but to me, MLK day represents the very worst in American revisionist history.
The Rev. Dr. MLK Jr. is, unfortunately, a fictional character as we have been told to know him. I say unfortunately because America could really use someone who could really live up to the reputation that has been created.
I recently heard some young relatives talking about how great MLK was, we're talking 13-16 years old here, and I can't imagine the level of propaganda that must've been used to cram this ideaology down their throats. They were honestly sincerely, idolizing this figure in American history, where they would otherwise be cynical, ambivalent, or most often, ignorant of history altogether.
What's the point? That those who win the war get to write the history. And this war, the war of relativism with regard to thought in American society, it be over a looooong time ago. Those books have been re-written and we're a generation and a half into a people who couldn't tell you what century the Revolution and Civil War were fought, yet know chapter and verse of the life of a re-defined and largely irrelevant personality.
But, as I said, whose chapter and verse are largely made up. Supposedly, the government has sealed documents until this year so maybe we'll know more, but his own biographers have said that King saw the civil rights movement, a push for equality, not as within the context of our American system of capitalism but as a paradigmal shift to Marxism.
According to King's biographer and sympathizer David J. Garrow, "King privately described himself as a Marxist." In his 1981 book, "The FBI and Martin Luther King, Jr.", Garrow quotes King as saying in SCLC staff meetings, "...we have moved into a new era, which must be an era of revolution.... The whole structure of American life must be changed.... We are engaged in the class struggle."
Isn't it odd that in America, we have a national holiday for someone who basically wanted to overthrow the government and trasition us to a socialist state?
Lest you be tempted to believe the controlled media's lie about "racists" in the FBI being out to "get" King, you should be aware that the man most responsible for the FBI's probe of King was Assistant Director William C. Sullivan. Sullivan describes himself as a liberal, and says that initially "I was one hundred per cent for King...because I saw him as an effective and badly needed leader for the Black people in their desire for civil rights." The probe of King not only confirmed their suspicions about King's Communist beliefs and associations, but it also revealed King to be a despicable hypocrite, an immoral degenerate, and a worthless charlatan.
According to Assistant Director Sullivan, who had direct access to the surveillance files on King which are denied the American people, King had embezzled or misapplied substantial amounts of money contributed to the "civil rights" movement. King used SCLC funds to pay for liquor, and numerous prostitutes both Black and White, who were brought to his hotel rooms, often two at a time, for drunken sex parties which sometimes lasted for several days. These types of activities were the norm for King's speaking and organizing tours.
In fact, an outfit called The National Civil Rights Museum in Memphis, Tennessee, which is putting on display the two bedrooms from the Lorraine Motel where King stayed the night before he was shot, has declined to depict in any way the "occupants - -of those rooms. That "according to exhibit designer Gerard Eisterhold "would be "close to blasphemy." The reason? Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. spent his last night on Earth having sex with two women at the motel and physically beating and abusing a third.
Sorry, but I just can't get jazzed about a leader, no matter how dynamic he is or how polished his image is, if this is what the FBI is reporting, and this from someone who once supported him. Maybe we'll know the whole story some day, but I have a suspicion that since the war is over, all we'll continue to get is the spin.
"led the movement that eradicated the most widespread injustice in the history of our nation."
"You can not be serious."
- John McEnroe
With all due respect, the work of the abolitionists and Mr. Lincoln would trump any civil rights activity, unequivolally. Washington, Jefferson, Roosevelt, Truman, and Eisenhower each and individually did more to shape this country than the sum total of every 1960s civil rights personality. So yeah, by comparison, irrelevant. Heck, if you've read any history on JFK, LBJ, you'd know that THEY had more to do with the acutal changes that occurred with regard to civil rights. Unfortunately, then, as now, it was mostly a political ploy to garner favor with minorities (votes).
And certainly irrelevant to kids of today, unless they happen to belong to a select group. By what standard am I making this statement? Simply asking the question, how would our lives be different today if ______ had never lived? I could come up with dozens of Americans that would outrank MLK.
"God's purposes were accomplished through him."
I can agree with that and for that, admire the man.
"A wrong was made right, proper order was restored, and a message of equality of all God's children was preached."
I can also agree in part with that but a couple of things. As I said before, what wouldn't have happened without him? And secondly, I don't know about any order being restored. Let's look at the current state of civil rights in the US. Its a bunch of shake down artists, not worthy of the MLK legacy.
And you're right, indiscretions do not mean that we shouldn't celebrate the good. But a national celebration is hardly warranted. Smells like political pandering.
We exsist in a nation and maybe a world now that cares nothing about the "truth".....it is a world of preception....and as Americans we have perfected this practice....our preception becomes reality...our "truth" if you will....the thing that strikes me funny is this...many of us, myself included, are quick to say that the liberal media is the issuse...they are the ones that we can't trust...but what has the government of this country done in its history that leads us to think that they are any different? I have known a number of people that have worked in the government...some with pretty high clearance....I have heard from some of those people that the government is not so different than the media...and that things are not always as they seem, so the fact that the FBI or any other agency of this government says something doesn't make it true....I've seen a lot of things in the last 10 years...the one thing you can count on is this...there are several sides to every story....and the "truth"...well that is something that resides, rather elusively, somewhere in the middle.
All that to say this...I agree with you both on certain things....do those that were affected by what this man did hold him up in a light that may be brighter now than it really was.....yeah, they probably do...but wouldn't we do the same if we were in their shoes? If it had been us that had to sit in the back of the bus....drink from a different water fountain...have our rights as a human kept from us?
I also know this...power corrupts...so the idea that he could be a little less perfect than he appears is no surprise to me either. And to Tooms point about fictional characters...well, they are all fictional...nobody, save Christ and maybe Billy Graham are who they appear to be, so to discredit what was accomplished in this movment because of character flaws I think is a disservice to the issue.
The fact is people in this country were and still are discriminated against for nothing more than who they are....that screams kindom of the world.....not Kingdom of God.
On the flip side of that coin, there are many people who can bring it from the pulpit while not living the same way outside of it...these people in my opinion do more damage to the cause of Christ than anything....I wasn't on the inside of this movment...I don't know anyone who was....but I do know this....there have been enough accounts of his life to bring some things in to question....those who were there know what they witnessed and we may never know the real story...and that is fine...becuase what really matters is the fact that God worked through this movment. Plain and simple....God's will was moved forward even with questionable men at the helm.....and this continues to happen everyday...and thank God that he doesn't just use "rightous men"...because I fear little would get done....
Was MLK the second coming...no, he wasn't......but he wasn't the anti-christ either.
CT: it is a world of preception....and as Americans we have perfected this practice....our preception becomes reality...our "truth" if you will
TH: Yes, no question. This is a hot button topic with me.
Your comments on government, liberal media bias, I agree with all of it. I'm not going to agree with anyone just because they have an official title. I'm skeptical of everyone and everything. But in this instance, the FBI guy who came out and said this stuff was an MLK ADVOCATE!!! He didn't have an agenda to bring him down, he simply reacted to what he saw.
CT: ... but wouldn't we do the same if we were in their shoes?
TH: Yes, good point. I understand how sometimes, the sum total of a movement gets credited to a singular person and that person can be deified in the eyes of followers.
CT: ... so to discredit what was accomplished in this movment because of character flaws I think is a disservice to the issue.
TH: Well said, and I admit, some of what I said was purposefully inflammatory. I don't know why I do that, I guess I just like to!!!
That being said, no, it does not discredit what was accomplished (Martin Luther himself was crazy and lookie what HE did) I probably should have confined the comment to be on what was and what wasn't accomplished.
CT: The fact is people in this country were and still are discriminated against for nothing more than who they are....that screams kindom of the world.....not Kingdom of God.
TH: yeah, but, nothing anyone can compare to the old days. And when you factor in reverse discrimmy, it is pretty much a wash. Certainly doesn't amount to a movement, which is why I bring up the current lackeys. They're into nothing more than getting corporate dollars because to not get them would cast a bad perception on the corporation. I know that is a harsh statement but it seems to be very much the reality and nothing MLK would have been a part of.
CT: and thank God that he doesn't just use "rightous men"...because I fear little would get done....
TH: Fo sho.
JH: Obviously, at that point African-Americans were not slaves but were still barely considered human.
TH: I think you're going a bit too far with that comment. I have known some old southern folk in my time and heard some pretty bigoted stuff but I've never heard anything like that.
If you want equality, fine, I would have been right there with them, but recent history shows more of a suggestion that a lot didn't - they wanted to be in the superior position - and that is a black mark on human nature. As was the opposition. They feared the unknown and it is hard for me to say I would have been much different. Those who had a real hatred there, that is the real issue.
In sum, I understand the desire for equality, to live together as if there are no differences. If that were it, you'd find no bigger advocate, I think this was MLK's position and it is mine. I also understand being afraid, from the white perspective, of what they did not understand. If I were taught this and that and had no experience to get me away from that, I'd be afraid too.
What I don't like is the push, not for equality, but to elevate one over the other because the one was once beneath the other. I side with Booker T. Washington (who faced REAL oppresion) and suggest, that can never happen - that real integration can't be forced with legislation. He put it more eloquently in the famous, "Cast down your bucket where you are" speech. http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/88.
But, history tells us that the civil rights movement went in another direction. Not "OK, so this is what we've been dealt. Time to show them white guys we can be just as good as them." But, "you've been so mean and nasty, now we demand you fix it all by putting bias in the system in our favor. And by the way, we'll be using that line from now until forever to explain away every issue for every time."
JH: Yours probably wouldn't be much different but there are plenty of minorites that would answer the question quite differently and really that should have an effect on all of us.
TH: C'mon. That's my point. Why does a nation of many people groups celebrate the very specialized impact of a largely manufactured persona? ... who may or may not have been advocating an overthrow of the government and the implementation of communism?
JH: As far as order being restored...order was restored because people that God created where no longer blatantly discriminated against by thier own government.
TH: Which is it? Is there still a 'struggle' or isn't there? I agree with you, that the problem was largely solved during that very tumultuous time. Why then are we still hearing about all this crap!!!??? Could it be that white America got MLK's message while his own army insists that more drastic reparations need to occur? How is little Jamal Thomas' life different from little Tucker Heaton's today that we need to give Jamal a government sanctioned boost? THAT is the ultimate slap in the face, not to white folks but African Americans. Only the majority doesn't see it that way because it is self-serving and they've been convinced (insert CT's perception as truth argument) that they're being treated badly.
That is what I meant when I said was order restored? On one side of the fence, order was reversed. On the other, order needs more movement in that same direction, and then there are those of us who think, yeah, we pretty much live in an equal society.
JH: As far as MLK warranting a national holiday (and maybe we are making two different points) I'm sure that if you look at it politically there are arguments that can be made, but I certainly believe that his life and what he accomplished deserves to be celebrated...national holiday or not.
TH: I do too! Not a freakin' national holiday when there are countless others who did more.
Look, MLK, shakes out to be a gifted leader who did a lot to further TRUE equality, either directly or indirectly. I like him, on the whole, (the threesome thing was pretty cool) and aside from the communist allegations, I like his message. But it irks me that we trump stuff up that fits the politically correct mold to these momentous things when the reality is, while important, too segmented to merit this kind of attention.
I do agree with your thought on the fact that the 60's were tame compared to previous generations...I still think you are looking at a lineage....or heritage.....that race had been oppressed for many years...stories handed down from father to son to grandson about what life had been like from the slave blocks to the plantations to free men...so yeah, was it as bad in the 60's...of course not...but it does seem to me that that time was kind of a culmination of all that had happened maybe....and your right...many went well before MLK with their lives....not from an assassins bullet but by their own government....
But again....I also agree that the "sins of our fathers" so to speak have been over corrected in this age of political correctness.....and I also fully affirm your theory that all of this (from a political lense) is done with agenda implications.
I'm not sure where to go from here....I remember hearing and using racial slurs growing up...and it sickens me that I viewed that as OK to do.....This is what I feel sure of....I am no better than anyone else that walks this earth....and God tells me I am to love without conditions on that love.....our world is an ugly one in many ways....is what MLK stood against the only form of discrimination....not by a long shot and i'm not so sure it's the worst we've seen....but it is wrong no matter how you slice it.
All I know to do is try my best to look at things through the lense of God's grace...not that I always do....but I want to.
This ain't easy and in a way, I've contradicted myself.
Lately, I've been wavering from the political right and perhaps this is my inner right wing's backlash, but it drives me crazy when we think and act out of a posture that says, "well, since this goes on with the opposition, I'll be reactionary to the other extreme" and I don't want to do that.
So, obviously, we have conflicting forces, inner forces, that tell us what we've learned and observed and right and wrong. Anyway, with that caveat...
CT: I'm not sure where to go from here....I remember hearing and using racial slurs growing up...and it sickens me that I viewed that as OK to do
TH: I'm not either. Another thing though that you touched on that we've accomplished in this country - ethnic slurs. So what? Now, if they speak to real feelings of superiority/hate/etc. then they need to be dealt with and sure, the use of such language speaks to someone's ignorance of the political climate, but we've so villified discussion, not necessarily derogatory discussion but ANY discussion of race, that it is the new unpardonable. What seems apparent to me is that there is nothing in culture today more offensive than truth that people don't want to hear. To say that "most terrorists are Muslim" does NOT equate to, "I hate Muslims" but plain and simple, it is offensive to say so even though it may be plain truth. To suggest that we're not going to develop ideas about people groups is INSANE! There's nothing wrong with it. To run from there to hate or to assumptions about individuals to the point where their lives are affected is crossing the line, but drawing a conclusion based on observation is nothing more than using one's brain. Contrast with, "Most Asian kids are smart." See, not offensive but the same broad generality is drawn. I've gotten off subject but the basic point here is, when did we get so sensitive? HS Truman, who I've come to see as a great President, said once someone in this country won't express an opinion based on fear, we're through. Based on his assessment, we're through.
CT: All I know to do is try my best to look at things through the lense of God's grace...not that I always do....but I want to.
TH: And that just about says it all. Beyond the lens of politics or even what you think should be corrected, this is the way to go about it. And quite honestly, I don't care about politics anymore anyway. Like I said when I started, we live in such a world of relativism, it is impossible to figure it out anyway so may as well concern yourself with the stuff you can. Wow, that's a positive approach, isn't it?
This is good stuff......real stuff.... and I think it is ok to know that we can't figure it all out....and like you said...focus on what we can affect in our own lives......
P.S......The PRF is alive and well!!!!
Rockin' debate. The most powerful message is one wherein what is spoken is also embodied by and demonstrated by the one speaking. But at the same time, truth does not find it's value in whether or not I accept it or live out the message. Truth is truth independent of me. Ted Haggard spoke vehemently against homosexual issues form the pulpit, yet was found to be wrestling with and acting upon that which he railed against. So often is the case with preachers, activists, and anyone with a cause.
I embrace the freedom and equality that has been passed on through the "based on a true story" history of MLK, Jr.
Race has divided men throughout history, and we are living in a time unlike any other in history where, disregarding the isolated racial incident, race doesn't matter. Yes, as with most adjustment, the pendulum has swung back the other way, meaning that before it rests in the non-discriminating middle, those who formerly were discriminating are now discriminated against. Our generation, and even moreso, our children will live in a unique world where people of all races dine together and worship together. Finally, a realization of the Gospel message that in Christ, there is neither Jew, nor Greek, slave nor free. Christ came to draw us to the Father, but also that the barriers between men might come down.
If I had my way, we wouldn't celebrate the man, we would celebrate the message of MLK spoken in his public life.
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." If only Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, et al shared that same dream...
That's a great point about truth, Jebo.
I didn't realize we had more content on this one till today. Makes me wonder, why do we enjoy or get fired up about race stuff? I think it is because deep down, people think that a group collectively feels a certain way and that is always beneath the surface. I have always thought it really weird when I see whites championing some cause of the minority position when I think the minority position is racist (like the guys that you see at Cynthia McKinney's campaign rallys) Yet, there must be something powerful within the individual that he sees fit to act like that. I understand self-interest but it is altogether different to chuck it and pull for the other side.
That being said, I applaud righting a wrong when it ain't you being wronged. I despise inequality based on race and most would say the same, only the difference is, a difference in philosophy of inequality.
So, where does that leave me? I get really reactionary when I perceive that the civil rights crew is really trying to re-write history and manipulate the country into a certain state of mind. Sometimes, that reaction goes too far. I also get upset when I perceive that a group of white people have hate beneath the surface and that response is sometimes too reactionary.
When I'm not reacting, what I'd really like to see is "the dream" come to pass. But it won't happen with one side pushing affirmative action and the other harboring secret ideas of superiority. My conviction is we're witnessing the shift from people groups assimilating into culture to culture being 'sensitive' and allowing themselves to be shifted.
Not good for America, but we knew that. Evidence that this issue will never go away until redemption is complete. But as Jebo's grandmother (and mine) is fond of saying, "I never promised you a rose garden."
And as Forest Gump said, "That's all I have to say about that."
You're right, Toom......I don't see this ever really being over. I guess what I feel is that I should look at each person as a being of value...no matter the color of their skin...This political power game is always going to be played until Christ calls game over....I hear what you are saying and it is hard sometimes to not get caught up in the "us vs. them" fray....each side making moves to try and secure more power over the other group.
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