I was reading one of the blogs I read recently and a subject was brought up that has been the subject of much thought the last several days……the question was this;
Do you believe that conversion includes a definite and discernible subjective experience?
Most of us here at the PRF are of an SBC heritage so we should be very familiar with the typical “invitation” where one “gets saved” or “Asks Jesus into their heart” or “Prays to receive Christ”…….how it is presented indicates that you will have a “Moment” in which you will know that Christ has entered your heart and you will at that instant be “Born Again”…..that you will have a discernible salvation experience.
I remember times when people would go forward during the invitation and pray with one of the pastors at the front……then Bobby Smith would go up to the pulpit and call people to meet Dr. Lee and he would say…..”This is Bill, he prayed to receive Christ this morning…” And Dr. Lee would say something like “How does it feel, Bill, to know that beyond a shadow of a doubt if you leave here today and die on the way home you’ll spend eternity in heaven??”…….I remember the look people like Bill would have on their face, at least some of them……….back then I would just assume that the look was Bill’s nervousness being in front of a big crowd……….looking back I now understand that it could very have been the fact that Bill didn’t feel anything……and that now he was worried that not only was he going to die on the way home but that he wasn’t sure beyond a shadow of doubt…..in fact there was a big shadow……in fact it was pitch black…..and Bill looked like the deer in the headlights.
Our young Christian lives were often centered around this experience……..the testimonies we were to give while “witnessing” on youth trips had this “experience” as the mid point……”I was bad before I was saved and then I was good”……I remember prepping for a youth trip one year and we would meet and work on our testimony….nothing inherently wrong with that except it felt more like a sales pitch than a true story of conversion…….after all, we would gather each night of a mission trip and tally our “sales”
One instance stands out in my mind that I have never forgotten……..
And we were set up in an apartment complex in the area….we came across this teenager and began to witness to him……for the next two hours JDG did everything he could to get the kid to say the prayer…..which he finally did……after which we high-fived and jumped around…….but here’s what threw me for a loop….since he prayed the prayer it should have been life changing, only that night….at the Billy Lord Concert (the night of the infamous “Sparkman Incident”) He was there and I happen to see him bum a smoke off a guys and light it up…….this blew my mind…..HE PRAYED THE PRAYER!!!! How could he smoke??….it should have changed his life….he shouldn’t want to smoke…..smoking was a sin!!!
We all remember the heavy emotions of mission trips…..or even revivals and pizza blasts…..that leads me to think that, in at least some instances, it could have been the emotion that was experienced instead of the salvation…….
I’m not saying that if you did indeed have a tangible experience that it was based on emotion…..that’s not mine or anyone else’s place to judge……I can tell you that I remember praying the sinners pray when I was 8 because I knew it would make my parents happy…..I even convinced myself I felt something…..when I new all along that the reason I did it was because I had learned to go under water and I was no longer scared to get baptized……….true story……the “experience” I had between my junior and senior year in high school was much different….it was with MG and it was a subtle realization that I was not who I had said I was….that I was in dire need of something different than what I had had to that point……it simply started a process that I am still growing into almost 18 years later………
So what do you think……..is salvation an experience, a process or something altogether different……and how has the environment we were raised in affected your view of conversion??
6 comments:
Whoa! Deep stuff. The way you describe the experience does a perfect job of encapsulating the experience itself as well as the culture.
I'm probably in the minority on this one as I don't really like invitations. (don't not invite me to your house, I mean the church kind) They're just so susceptible to coercion/manipulation.(and I’m not talking theory here, but I’ve seen it happen to the degree that I have been uncomfortable with the tactics used) They also exacerbate the church’s obsession with numbers and while I think measurements are important, counting salvations seems to be somewhat meaningless and seems to cheapen the whole thing, reducing one’s conversion to a checklist. Worse, some might look back at the experience and put much faith in the experience itself and thus think they are in good standing with God when they aren’t.
Anyhoo, call me what you will but I like to see what the Westminster Confession has to say. Scripture proofs are available of course.
I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.
There’s a whole volume of books right there. My understanding of this is that God sets the time and place at his choosing when one becomes regenerated. Remember that He knew you were His before time began. Can regeneration be at the exact time you were convinced by the preacher that it was a good idea? Sure. Is it likely? Not if the one who “comes to Jesus” does so through some type of man-designed coercion. But I’m sure it happens that God ordains it that way. The other thing here to note is God changes us SO THAT WE CAN THEN accept Him. I realize this is controversial stuff but in my view, otherwise, you reduce the process to who is smarter, wiser, whatever; but you reduce it to something that relies on your own decision making which is not just wrong but pretty elitist in my view. Which is also why a lot of Christians are elitist in my view. Here’s a little more.
II. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.
So, revisiting the scenario, I would conclude that the conversion experience involves God regenerating man from his sin nature. (As fallen man can not choose God on his own, he is a slave to his sin) Man’s eyes are open and he can then see what God has done for him and the only real choice is to accept the grace extended. The cool thing is that God uses men to proclaim His truth and bring salvation to the nations. And sometimes this muddies the water in terms of who, what, and when. I would suggest that many of us would be surprised if we actually knew the date of our regeneration. My thinking here is that someone may think he has chosen Christ but might have done so out of self-preservation and with no love for God at all.
What confuses me (and sometimes scares me) are the questions regarding what does one have to know / understand in order to be saved, but then, I’m a Calvinist and I figure God knows what He’s doing!
As a non-Calvinist I will agree with much of Toom's expose, but in some areas, disagree heartily .
To respond to the lead post, salvation is both a completed work that can be pinpointed in time and an ongoing process.
English often fails to express what the NT Greek intends. If you've taken Spanish, you will know that there is a Preterito (Preterite) and an Imperfecto (Imperfect) tense. The former means an event in the past that is completed while the latter is an action that began in the past yet is incomplete and ongoing. NT Greek uses both of these tenses when speaking of the salvation of believers.
We are born again, in Christ, saved, redeemed, a new Creation, dead to sin, alive in Christ, and on and on. At some point for a believer, salvation has taken place, and an individual as a completed act, was transformed from a child of darkness to a child of God.
In addition, we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. In no way does this refer to salvation by works. This alludes to the process by which in this world a child of God is being made more Christ-like. Likewise, a believer is indwelt by the Spirit of God, and also is command to be (being) filled with the Spirit. In one sense complete, in another ongoing.
Second, invitations did not begin with the SBC. Joshua told the folks to "choose this day whom they will serve," John the Baptist called people to "repent and be baptized," and Jesus called his disciples to "come, follow Me." Acts records thousands being saved and the Church being added to, and most likely, some observable action, change, or profession was most likely involved. The way in which we profess our faith is not limited to the carpeted aisles of a church, I strongly believe that the
Gospel does demand a response.
Where we will agree completely is that coercion is never God's way. Salvation is God's work, and no one comes to the Father unless the Spirit draws them. Much damage is done when the Gospel is abbreviated, soft-sold, and somehow the walking of an aisle, joining the membership of a church, being baptized, or even saying a "sinners" prayer becomes the WAY of salvation.
None of those things in themselves is wrong, but church water and the words of a prayer are not the Gospel, and apart from God they are empty. Far too many baptisms in the SBC and elsewhere are re-baptisms (which really means they just got wet the first time). Far too many folks, young and old are trusting an experience or an event (sometimes very religious) instead of Christ for their salvation, leaving them confident but lost.
Since I work with kids in the church, I know that children (ans the same could be said of adults) respond for many reasons to an invitation. I've seen kids walk an aisle out of curiosity (not conviction), seeking please a speaker, parent, or teacher, pure emotion, wanting to do what someone else has done, or simply because they feel it's time. However, until it's God's time, it's useless and often harmful.
Drawing a crowd or eliciting a response is not always proof that what someone is involved in God's work. For reference: see where Jesus had developed quite a following due to the miracles and the food only to speak the hard truth and watch many go home. Many today would question his words or methods simply based on math.
Henry Blackaby eloquently says that, "Not everything that counts can be counted." If only you could've seen my bosses' face when I quoted that in a staff meeting...
To get Toom riled up, and at the risk of being "elitist" I'll simply say that God does not desire that any should perish, I have been chosen in Christ Jesus just as all who have believed and will believe, and that I am called by God as a steward of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to share Him as a living hope to a dark world. While I cannot save anyone, I am an ambassador, sent by God with a message from the King to a people who are far from Him that some might be saved.
The messenger has no power in himself, but the Message (the Gospel) is the path to salvation.
As to what must one know to be saved. I'll often say that one must know that I am a sinner in need of a Savior, and that God sent His Son Jesus, to die on the Cross for me, and yet He lives. However, one may know this, yet not trust in Him. Mental assent can lead to saving faith but can not take the place of that salvation experience.
I've said too much. Irresistable grace another day.
Jeebs,
You had me at hello.
But I think you lost me starting at "we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. In no way does this refer to salvation by works."
I see it a bit differently. That prior to salvation, man is a slave to sin and after salvation, man is no longer captive by sin. He still has complete ability to sin (as I prove all too well) but his new captor is the Lord. We should be growing in faith but aware that we are very capable of the same sins of the past. (this would go far in helping pastors/elders see why the church experiences such dramatic falls in its leaders)
One point of clarification, by "invitation" I only meant the process popularized in church. The pastor prays, choir sings Just As I Am and "if no one comes, we'll leave for lunch" or "God told me to sing one more verse for you". In contrast, I applaud preaching the gospel and revealing the truth in inviting people to turn to God.
"Salvation is God's work, and no one comes to the Father unless the Spirit draws them." Glad to hear you say it, but I have to say this. If the Spirit must draw them, that either means 1. The spirit doesn't do a very good job with the majority of the people or 2. The spirit is only compelled to draw an elect few.
Jeebs, you prefaced a statement, "to get Toom riled up" and I agreed with every word of your statement that followed!
Disclaimer: Neither Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, nor Perseverance of the Saints were used in my post nor did they appear in my previous post!!!
As someone who is probably somewhere in between you both...with and admitted lean towards Calvinism...but with a distaste for labels as well...
To be clear..I know that the SBC didn't create the invitation....but show me a mainline SBC church that doesn't have one....and really I was talking more about the evangelistic tool known as the "altar call" more than anything else....and to be fair there are other denominations that do this more dramatically..Charismatic and Pentecostal come to mind.
Jeebs: ..... At some point for a believer, salvation has taken place, and an individual as a completed act, was transformed from a child of darkness to a child of God.
My question here is...and I'm asking because I'm not sure, not because I think you are wrong....are we transformed at the point of salvation or simply awakened?...Because it seems to me that the transformation is the process...I guess to be technical, those of us who become Christians were really saved 2000 years ago.
I guess my original thought was...since I believe that one must be regenerate or drawn by the Spirit...and I have no doubt that can happen in the context of an altar call.....is it a good thing to try and evoke an emotional response from people who are not being drawn by the Spirit but that are guilted or scared into it....I don't think God wants our begrudging acceptance because we don't want to go to hell.
Jeebs:.....Far too many folks, young and old are trusting an experience or an event (sometimes very religious) instead of Christ for their salvation, leaving them confident but lost.
You nailed it right there....and that is what got me thinking in the first place....I think it's safe to say there are many, many people that fall into this.....problem is these are the people who are in church every time the doors are opened and represent Christianity to many.....I think this is a big problem.....and I think it continues to be perpetuated.
When I left RBC and went to NPCC what I heard most about was the fact that they didn't have and altar call each week.....after all, how will anyone ever get saved without one......that has become almost comical to me...several years back I went to RBC for a revival in an attempt to keep some peace......hands down one of the worst experiences in my life....the night I was there the invitation was 40 minutes long and it was totally geared towards emotion...the guy must have said "this is the last verse, this is your last chance" like 12 times....it jumped the shark for me when he said..."there is one more person that is supposed to come down tonight"......At which time I leaned over and told Katrina I was going up there so he would shut up and we could go home.....
It's that kind of stuff that makes me think the church has done a disservice to the Gospel.
On the flip side of that....I am still trying to unpack the thought that there are some on this earth that can't come to know God because they aren't elect...I understand that there are many that won't....but I still haven't gotten my mind around that completely even though I think it at least needs to be considered.
We all invited friends back in high school to pizza blasts at church....how many of them really experienced Christ there rather than fear and emotional pressure?
WOW...I'm late to this party and I don't know where to begin. The boxes that have been opened could provide a solid year of Pea Ridge banter. I mean come on, these are some BIG questions.
I think I will stick to the original question that was posed and maybe add a couple of additional thoughts.
So, do you believe that conversion includes a definite and discernible subjective experience? My belief is that there is a definite moment where salvation comes but I don't like the word experience in this case because I don't believe that it has anything to do with emotion.
I don't believe that we all can name the date and time of our salvation and feel certain salvation does not come soley from saying a prayer or walking an aisle. My belief is that salvation comes when we realize that we are created beings that were designed to be in submissive communion with our Creator but our sin (self-interest, trying to be our own god, etc.) has kept this fullfillment from happening. I am on team Toom in the sense that without the grace of God we will never come to this realization on our own. So, it can take us years to realize that outside of justification through Christ we are but a big pile of dung, but coming from death to life is not a process, it happens in a moment.
We now take a commercial break for a quote from Dallas Willard:
"Grace is opposed to earning not effort."
I see salvation and sanctification as two totally separate processes. The "working out of our salvation" is sanctification and is a life-long process. In my opinion, when Paul talks about the renewing of our mind he is refering to re-orienting ourselves to our justification through the cross of Christ. When we feed on and orient ourselves to the life of Christ that is within us, He becomes more and we become less and this is where TRUE FREEDOM LIES. There is no space for self-rightousness here because our obedience only comes through Christ by the Spirit and not by any goodness that is within us. The things that Paul calls us to "think on" are our life long effort and lead us towards our complete and total surrender.
One of our greatest calls as followers of Christ is the great commission: to proclaim the good news of redemption and restoration in word and deed, so I am all for preaching the Gospel of Christ, but the traditional revival style invitation makes me a little uncomfortable. I just wonder if it does more harm than good? It does seem to be man-centric and heavily bent towards emotion as others have said.
This statement by Jeebs is so right on: The messenger has no power in himself, but the Message (the Gospel) is the path to salvation. We are the agents of reconciliation in the present age, and one of the major tools God has chosen to use in order to make Himself renown. If I was God I don't know that I would have chosen Jason Haynes for this but I am humbled and honored by the task because I know I am but a sinner saved by grace.
Chris- as far as what you are trying to unpack at the end of your last post: welcome to the club, my friend. But, it is very important that you know this: based on the classic reformed view there are NONE that truly seek Christ who don't come to know him...it is impossible. Those that are "not elect" are only given over to their own desires. Simple, right? :)
Maybe I'll have time later to review and respond but regarding Juice's post for now, "What he said."
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